I just wanted to know how his date went..27-07-2015

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Re: I just wanted to know how his date went..27-07-2015

Postby BenjaminT » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:30 am

While I'll agree that Katia's obliviousness is extreme, I don't think it requires huge explanation. I've met people like her before. Personally, I think personality can explain most, if not all of it. Some people really are that clueless at times. Protective parents or self-imposed isolation might exacerbate it but it probably doesn't even need that. *shrug* Until you've met some people like that, I'll admit it can be hard to believe and even when you do meet them you'll often find yourself incredulous but there it is. But being oblivious much of the time doesn't prevent her from being insightful or observant other times. These people can surprise you in more ways than one. I think part of how people like this can be so oblivious is because they hone in on and obsess over some things so much that it drowns out other things. So they will be incredibly insightful on things they have obsessed over but not much else.

As for Linda, I don't really see what she said as incredibly insightful. Not that she's wrong but just that there wasn't a whole lot to it. She basically said, "Katia, how can you be so dumb? He clearly lied when he said he was okay with just being friends." To Katia's credit, it sounds like she heard Linda out and took it in. Many people would have stopped listening when they heard the dumb part. So Linda is prone to suspecting lies and that broken clock is right twice a day. Fortunately it will likely help Katia this time but it's not like Linda even had any good advice yet on what to do about it.
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Re: I just wanted to know how his date went..27-07-2015

Postby Attalus » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:49 am

cursormortis wrote:1. Bismarck was awesome and also kinda a dick but still totally awesome. That's really all I had to say about that.
I did say equivocal.

2. Traits are not inherently likable or unlikable. Pretty much every character trait out there can be used to make a character likable or unlikable. Richard from Looking For Group is a homicidal maniac who kills and maims for fun and laughs about it. But he's likable because he crosses the line twice and makes it funny. Every character in Something Positive is a terrible person but a fun charscter because it's portrayed as the norm and set in contrast to the stupidity of the general population. Likability of a character has more to do with how the traits are portrayed and combined, and with the audience's personal experiences, than with the trait itself. Me, I like a smart cunning intelligent and observant character. They're interesting and in that way likable.
Charitableness, affability, empathy, and self-abnegation are all inherently likable traits. As for your examples, well, let's just say I disagree wholeheartedly. I have seen enough murder victims not to find anything about that funny.
There was a little girl who had a little curl
Right in the middle of her forehead,
When she was good, she was very, very good,
But when she was bad, she was horrid!
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Re: I just wanted to know how his date went..27-07-2015

Postby cursormortis » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:22 am

If a man gives every penny he has to charity, is his charitableness a likable trait for his wife? If a person is mad and just wants a solution, is empathy likable? Is affability likable to someone who just wants to be left alone? Is self-abnegation likable if it turns to self-hatred? Are these traits 100% likable by all people at all times? Is any? No.

Going back to your example of historical figures who were smart, cunning, clever, and observant, what about Lincoln? Washington? FDR? JFK? Nixon? Eisenhower? Obama? You deliberately chose examples of people whose politics, policies, and actions you disagreed with. But what about these presidents? Every single one of them is or was smart and cunning and clever and observant. Each of them has the same traits you claim are inherently unlikable and each of them did some major good in the world with those traits.

Likability is in the eye of the beholder. It is dependent on personal experience, mood, and current desires; and likely on a host of other things that escape me at the moment. Nothing is inherently likable or unlikable. That's all there is to it.
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Re: I just wanted to know how his date went..27-07-2015

Postby RDrd » Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:30 am

Warrl wrote:Think about how fanatical some recent converts to a religion (any religion) are. They see EVERYTHING through the lens of their new faith, and think EVERYONE should be like them. Your computer's getting old and the power supply is failing? Just change to their religion and their deity will take care of things for you.

Some recent ex-smokers are the same way.

And, perhaps, so is Katia.


This would make some sense. If, during her negative phase, she often ascribed negative motives to people when they genuinely didn't have them- it's possible that she's over-correcting and trying to take everyone at face value and give people the benefit of the doubt.

BenjaminT wrote:As for Linda, I don't really see what she said as incredibly insightful. Not that she's wrong but just that there wasn't a whole lot to it. She basically said, "Katia, how can you be so dumb? He clearly lied when he said he was okay with just being friends." To Katia's credit, it sounds like she heard Linda out and took it in. Many people would have stopped listening when they heard the dumb part. So Linda is prone to suspecting lies and that broken clock is right twice a day. Fortunately it will likely help Katia this time but it's not like Linda even had any good advice yet on what to do about it.

Linda's a bit of a wild card. It's really hard to know how much of her thought process is self-delusion and how much is pure selfishness. Where was this insight when she decided to lie to steal a guy off her close friend and roommate, then cheated on him with his roommate? Because she cannot have seriously thought that was going to end well for her.

So it's not that this is amazingly insightful on every level- pretty much any character could have told Katia this. It's that it's Linda saying it that's surprising.
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