He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby Fereshte » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:14 am

That's an interesting point--I didn't consider Candi's trust issues may be exasperated due to the trauma. Very possible.

As for Andrew, perhaps he's on medication? My friend who murdered his mother was out of the mental hospital in 6 years. He couldn't stand trial obviously and I guess once he was proven to be mentally sound on meds they let him go (I always felt it was way too early. It's kind of scary). So I was just guessing that her brother is now doing very well on meds and they consider him mentally sound. Maybe? How long has it been since the fire incident? Two years? I'm not sure, that's just a guess.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby Sylvanaerie » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:23 pm

Fereshte wrote:That's an interesting point--I didn't consider Candi's trust issues may be exasperated due to the trauma. Very possible.

As for Andrew, perhaps he's on medication? My friend who murdered his mother was out of the mental hospital in 6 years. He couldn't stand trial obviously and I guess once he was proven to be mentally sound on meds they let him go (I always felt it was way too early. It's kind of scary). So I was just guessing that her brother is now doing very well on meds and they consider him mentally sound. Maybe? How long has it been since the fire incident? Two years? I'm not sure, that's just a guess.


They're sophomores now, so...a year? Or a few months depending on when it actually happened in the previous year and how far we are into this sophomore year. It was during a school project Candi and Chris were working on together dealing with kids, so at least some of the year had been done already.

But no more than a year.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby MorrisCat » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:39 pm

SolitareLee wrote:Look, if someone with PTSD (me) who works with people with PTS & PTSD comes in here and says Fereshte knows what they're talking about and is 100% correct can we all stop pretending like if Candi had no side effects mentally from ALMOST BEING SET ON FIRE that would be totally normal? Frankly I always assumed that her intense, lingering trust issues and seemingly now-increased abandonment issues were because of or at least inflamed by the incident. I also kind of understand the whole "comics not gonna go that dark" thing (which is 100% fair but doesn't make it realistic) although it's a little personally disappointing for someone WITH PTSD. Since Candi is a generally light hearted slice of life type story, it would be nice to see it play out in a LESS dramatic, This Will Effect Your Life Forever You Scared Person way, which is how it's normally portrayed in TV, comics, & movies. I think with Candi it would be something that happened and she managed to recover from (which may have happened off screen although that would be a little lame IMO), or something that came up occasionally and complicated things, but wasn't Candi's defining feature. Which is how it often works in real life, even if you never see it portrayed that way.

I live with someone who has PTSD and agree with you wholeheartedly. I've also read the arc from the fair onward and the one thing that I wanted to point out is immediately on the heals of the attack Alex dumps Candi. Following this are some comics showing Candi in a depressed and listless state and a few where we see her working out things like the attack.

So, I wouldn't say that she was unaffected or didn't show signs of PTS. Further, we have yet to see Candi deal with another threatening situation, so we don't know if she will trigger or how she might express it if she does.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby Warrl » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 pm

SolitareLee wrote:Look, if someone with PTSD (me) who works with people with PTS & PTSD comes in here and says Fereshte knows what they're talking about and is 100% correct can we all stop pretending like if Candi had no side effects mentally from ALMOST BEING SET ON FIRE that would be totally normal?


???

Who said anything about "normal"?
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby ailorn » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:07 pm

Not everyone who experiences a traumatic experience will be traumatized and develop PTS or PTSD. For example there are many instances of different people who lived through 9/11 and some developed PTS/PTSD while other did not. Psychology believes that there is a mix between genetic and environmental factors that can trigger expression of mental illness. Some people have the vulnerability to develop a mental illness but don’t because they don’t have the environmental trigger (such as pregnancy hormones, or traumatic life or death experiences.) Side note, if there is Schizophrenia or Bipolar in your family history, please be wary of marijuana use as there is a correlation between amount of exposure to marijuana and activation of those illnesses. Also, while Schizophrenia is not a common illness, its most common symptom is auditory hallucinations, (rather than visual ones) including commands.

I believe Starline's portrayal of mental illness in the comic does try to be reflective of our current understanding, and respectful of mental illness. She also has artistic license in how it is expressed in the comic which is within real life norms. In other words, she gets to not have it be an issue if it conflicts with her story.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby Skadi The Slamazon » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:14 pm

ailorn wrote:Not everyone who experiences a traumatic experience will be traumatized and develop PTS or PTSD. For example there are many instances of different people who lived through 9/11 and some developed PTS/PTSD while other did not. Psychology believes that there is a mix between genetic and environmental factors that can trigger expression of mental illness. Some people have the vulnerability to develop a mental illness but don’t because they don’t have the environmental trigger (such as pregnancy hormones, or traumatic life or death experiences.) Side note, if there is Schizophrenia or Bipolar in your family history, please be wary of marijuana use as there is a correlation between amount of exposure to marijuana and activation of those illnesses. Also, while Schizophrenia is not a common illness, its most common symptom is auditory hallucinations, (rather than visual ones) including commands.

I believe Starline's portrayal of mental illness in the comic does try to be reflective of our current understanding, and respectful of mental illness. She also has artistic license in how it is expressed in the comic which is within real life norms. In other words, she gets to not have it be an issue if it conflicts with her story.


The problem is that in this world, Andrew isn't having auditory hallucinations or anything like that. The fact is that the squrriel mafia is a real thing. I'm not saying that he doesn't have Schizophrenia because of that, but if it was based on the rantings about the squrriel mafia which is a reality, that throws the whole mental illness thing into question. Unless everyone in the main cast is also suffering from halucinations, which opens a whole other cans of worms.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby MorrisCat » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:06 pm

Skadi The Slamazon wrote:The problem is that in this world, Andrew isn't having auditory hallucinations or anything like that. The fact is that the squrriel mafia is a real thing. I'm not saying that he doesn't have Schizophrenia because of that, but if it was based on the rantings about the squrriel mafia which is a reality, that throws the whole mental illness thing into question. Unless everyone in the main cast is also suffering from halucinations, which opens a whole other cans of worms.


Andrew was operating under dangerous delusions, possibly from a psychotic break brought on by admittedly real talking squirrels. From Andrew's previous interactions with Jess we know he was trying to kill her when they were children. Starting here and including the next nine comics we learn how he tried to smother her to death, which he calls 'hugs' - not the sign of someone admitting he was out of control. All of this leads up to reactions like this when he sends her a letter. Eventually during the Fair arc the squirrel mafia mentions his unstable mind and also Jess reveals that her brother is dangerously schizophrenic.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby Skadi The Slamazon » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:32 am

MorrisCat wrote:
Skadi The Slamazon wrote:The problem is that in this world, Andrew isn't having auditory hallucinations or anything like that. The fact is that the squrriel mafia is a real thing. I'm not saying that he doesn't have Schizophrenia because of that, but if it was based on the rantings about the squrriel mafia which is a reality, that throws the whole mental illness thing into question. Unless everyone in the main cast is also suffering from halucinations, which opens a whole other cans of worms.


Andrew was operating under dangerous delusions, possibly from a psychotic break brought on by admittedly real talking squirrels. From Andrew's previous interactions with Jess we know he was trying to kill her when they were children. Starting here and including the next nine comics we learn how he tried to smother her to death, which he calls 'hugs' - not the sign of someone admitting he was out of control. All of this leads up to reactions like this when he sends her a letter. Eventually during the Fair arc the squirrel mafia mentions his unstable mind and also Jess reveals that her brother is dangerously schizophrenic.


That is true. I forgot about the lead up to tell the truth, but I can't get on board with this a realist presentation of mental illness when there are things in the world like the squrriel Mafia being that is a thing he actively is involved with. With the squrriel mafia being a real thing, demons telling Andrew things could also be true, which wouldn't be a hallucination if a demon truely exist in this world. Admittly that hasn't been evidence either way for that, but the squrriel mafia does open that door, just a bit. Not defending with what the character has done, but the other thing we have to remember is that violent schizophrenia is a small precent of schizophernics.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby cursormortis » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:05 am

I don't know enough psychology to say if it would be more or less normal for Candi to develop PTSD from what happened. I do know that, as Skadi said, this is a story and reality tends to bend when stories demand it. That said, the story and world still demand a measure of reality. Despite the existence of a squirrel mafia, flying ferrets, squirrets, and overly intelligent birds, this comic's world actually has a fairly large dose of reality. So far I haven't seen any reason to believe demons are a part of this world, or that Andrew was actually influenced by them.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby MorrisCat » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:41 pm

Skadi The Slamazon wrote:That is true. I forgot about the lead up to tell the truth, but I can't get on board with this a realist presentation of mental illness when there are things in the world like the squrriel Mafia being that is a thing he actively is involved with. With the squrriel mafia being a real thing, demons telling Andrew things could also be true, which wouldn't be a hallucination if a demon truely exist in this world. Admittly that hasn't been evidence either way for that, but the squrriel mafia does open that door, just a bit. Not defending with what the character has done, but the other thing we have to remember is that violent schizophrenia is a small precent of schizophernics.


I don't think anyone has said that all schizophrenics are violent. I think it was Fereshte who knew a violent schizophrenic, and the rest of the discussion has been limited to Andrew. I do not think a comic of any sort is going to be able to show a realistic depiction of any type of "mental illness". The media in general and the news media in specific have done a terrible job of adequately showing the true face of psychological disorders. With a comic we have a lot of room for interpretation of the dialogs, internal monologues, and the art. For instance Candi may have had a brief bit of PTS that may have exacerbated her trust issues and depression over Alex dumping her, or she may not have - it depends on what the reader sees.

I am no mental health expert but a little google-foo and I find there are five types of symptoms characteristic of schizophrenia: delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, disorganized behavior, and the so-called “negative” symptoms. However, the signs and symptoms of schizophrenia vary dramatically from person to person, both in pattern and severity. Not every person with schizophrenia will have all symptoms, and the symptoms of schizophrenia may also change over time.

So far we have seen that Andrew has very strong feelings about his sister, and when she flatly turned him down his reaction looks like he is dangerously angry. If I were to hazard a guess I would say he has exhibited delusions of persecution "There are demons in Jess that I must be destroy!" and "The demons in Candi are keeping Jess from me - I must burn them out of her!" I don't care where the thought comes from, auditory hallucinations or squirrel mafia, he acted on a version of his old delusions so something was off on his meds or he would have been able to figure out what he was doing was wrong.

As far as Andrew's mental health goes, if we are following reality, the treatments for schizophrenia are getting better all the time. However, they rely heavily on medication, therapy and a strong support network. One thing defenders of those with a sever mental illness seem to fail to grasp about support networks is those people who have had to live with the person, or even worse are victims of physical abuse brought on by the mental illness, are people with limits to what they can deal with too. That being said Andrew's support network has to be honest about what is happening. Grammy, apparently is not (or is not sensitive at all to Jess in this mess), we don't know how the parents are handling this, and Jess, fully within her rights, has no interest in being any part of it.
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Re: He messes up again and again, 25 December 2014

Postby SolitareLee » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:41 pm

Fereshte wrote:That's an interesting point--I didn't consider Candi's trust issues may be exasperated due to the trauma. Very possible.

As for Andrew, perhaps he's on medication? My friend who murdered his mother was out of the mental hospital in 6 years. He couldn't stand trial obviously and I guess once he was proven to be mentally sound on meds they let him go (I always felt it was way too early. It's kind of scary). So I was just guessing that her brother is now doing very well on meds and they consider him mentally sound. Maybe? How long has it been since the fire incident? Two years? I'm not sure, that's just a guess.


I have absolutely no idea how time passes in this comic so your guess is as good as mine time wise. I thought it had been like... two sememsters, maybe? It happened in a spring semester, because then there was a summer, and then that fall Katia showed up, so... is it the spring semester again? Or has that finished? Either way I think maybe about a year. I'm just saying, he was in the psych ward, they declared him mentally sound as long as he stayed on his medications, and within, like, what, a month, he went off his meds and nearly killed a woman? I can't see doctors letting him out again within the year. Six years, definitely, or even maybe three. But they'd definitely be gun shy about him going off his meds again since he's shown that behavior in the past.

MorrisCat wrote:I live with someone who has PTSD and agree with you wholeheartedly. I've also read the arc from the fair onward and the one thing that I wanted to point out is immediately on the heals of the attack Alex dumps Candi. Following this are some comics showing Candi in a depressed and listless state and a few where we see her working out things like the attack.

So, I wouldn't say that she was unaffected or didn't show signs of PTS. Further, we have yet to see Candi deal with another threatening situation, so we don't know if she will trigger or how she might express it if she does.


That's a good point. For some reason that had flown into "because she was dumped in the worst possible way" territory, but it's absolutely possible that a big chunk of that depression was the whole "almost killed AND then dumped in the worst possible way."

On the "normal" debate: Note that I did say "no side effects" would be abnormal. As MorrisCat just pointed out, the depression could be a side effect, and I STILL am in camp worsened-trust-issues. I don't think Candi has had no side effects. But it would be weird to me if she did. And I'm hoping bringing Andrew up brings us into an arc where that kind of lasting effect comes up. Doesn't have to be PTSD. Over half of people who are assaulted don't develop long term PTSD (I do have exact numbers if anyone's curious), although a goodly number of those have short lived post traumatic stress (which could have been Candi's depression, which I hadn't considered). For example, my best friend had an incident where she was violently assaulted with glass bottles by drunkards on the street. She freaked out for a while, then calmed down, but she won't walk anywhere by herself at night anymore. The trauma is gone, but there's some lasting effects, ie her unwillingness to go out alone. That's the sort of thing I was talking about. Like if Candi refuses to go to fairs now or something.
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